If bridges were collapsing all over America and killed dozens of drivers each time, there would be predictable outrage and a push to stop the bridges falling down. If four major bridges had gone down this year alone then the public would be clamouring for the Government to do something to make things safer so people were not killed while going about their everyday lives.
Only when it comes to death by guns does it seem unacceptable to discuss how to stop more tragic deaths.
The second amendment is always mentioned, the part that protects 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed' although the first part of that sentence is never heard, the part that states the right to bear arms belongs to 'a well regulated militia' .
From where i am sitting the arms bearers are anything but well regulated because the vast majority of the mass killings that we see are perpetrated by guns that are legally owned and the militia as mentioned was at the time the US didn't have a standing army, which it does now therefore rendering the need for an irregular army composed of ordinary citizens obsolete .
The pro-gun groups also put forward the excuse that the bad guys will get firearms regardless of laws so they need to be armed but the guns used in yesterdays slaughter were legally purchased by the killer's mother, who also died at the hands of her son, so unless you can guarantee that your guns are locked away so only you can use them, the guns can, and in this case did, fall in the hands of a mentally unstable person.
That would suggest that much more stringent regulation for storing the weapons are needed at the very least.
The next argument put forward is that if more people were armed then these kind of incidents would be stopped earlier. I have never understood the argument that the way to stop gun deaths is bring even more lethal weapons into the equation as is borne out in numerous academic studies such as the Harvard Injury Control Research Centre that concluded a study into guns and homicides that 'Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.'
The School of Public Health at the State University of New York Downstate Medical Centre School analysed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across the 50 states over a ten year period found: 'After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide'.
Another soundbite from the NRA and its supporters is that 'it's not guns that kill people, people kill people' which is true but it is people holding guns that kill the most. That's why the World Governments hand their military guns when they go into battle and not a sword or a crossbow. A gun is designed and built with just one purpose, to propel a bullet with force into a target and kill it, so a gun is a tool to perform that action so if you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger then you are using that tool for the purpose that it was designed for. Guns don't people but we kill people with guns.
My own conclusion is that all these deaths over the decades are the weak defence of an inclusion in the Constitution that has been perverted and edited to protect a right that no longer makes any sense (the hypothetical transformation of the democracy into a tyranny) except to people who make and sell weapons and people who feel the need, for whatever reason, to own a gun and jeopardise the safety of themselves, their own families and those 20 children in an elementary school because it makes you think that if the Lanza house didn't have those guns in it yesterday, would the son have been able to do what he did with such devastating results?
17 comments:
Sigh...
There are costs and benefits to these sorts of policy decisions. The rate of "hot" burglaries (burglaries when the owners are home) is vastly higher in the UK than it is in the United States. And when is the last time that you heard about a major riot in the United States? Potential criminals are actually deterred from committing crimes or are persuaded to commit less severe and dangerous crimes at statistically significant rates because they're afraid of getting shot.
Also, you're focusing on the tail and missing the whole rest of the elephant.
Go check out the "US Peace Index" (an annual study conducted by a left-wing group). I find this to be one of the most amusing studies in existence because the organization takes into account all sorts of demographic information (i.e. gun ownership and access to guns) and analyzes their relationship to "peacefulness." But the one enormous and basic demographic factor that they do not consider is the one with the strongest and most undeniable correlation with "peacefulness." This demographic factor also happens to be the one major demographic factor that the study you quote does not control for.
Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Minnesota, North Dakota, and Utah have some of the most liberal gun laws in the country. But then so does Texas and Alabama. So what is it that Maine and Utah have in common that they don't share in common with Texas and Alabama?
You can read studies saying gun ownership does this and that. The fact of the matter is that Maine, Utah, every nation in Europe to varying degrees, Canada, and Japan share a particular demographic commonality that they do not share with Texas and Alabama.
-Nog
So you justify no gun regulation because you are afraid of being burgled?
Lucy,
Blaming guns for the problems we have in the USA is like blaming cars in your bridge scenario.
The USA has hundreds of gun laws (regulation) and we don't have to justify anything because gun ownership is in our constitution.
And yes, all VIOLENT crime including rape, burgarlary, and assult are higher in the UK than in the USA - except murder. 1.5 brits per 100,000. 3 americans per 100,000.
Did you see any videos of the shooting? the police were literally running around with their guns drawn, loaded and ready to fire... only problem is Adam had already murdered his mom, everyone at the school, and shot himself. IT WAS OVER when the police arrived.
We couldn't get rid of alcohol. we can't get rid of drugs. we can't get rid of child pornography. how can we get rid of guns? CANNOT.
if i'm forced to turn in my guns then the only people in my town with guns will be the drug pushers, thieves, and police (we know the police show up after the crime). then there is the fact that the drug gangs in mexico are just a 3 hour drive from here - a nice buffer now but if we got rid of our guns they would soon push deeper into the USA with arrogance - like the way they control most of mexico.
i will consider changes offered, but frankly i'm not optimistic.
i know hundreds, probably thousands of people that have guns and use them properly.
it seems wrong to me to take something from millions of people because of the actions of dozens.
i'd rather pay to have police at every school than give up my gun.
q
First chance i get q i will edit the post and include a bit about banning guns so it doesn't look as if you commented without reading the post properly.
Lucy, it is clear that many if not most Americans are psychopaths.
Guns make such mentally disturbed people feel powerful. With a semi-automatic rifle in their hands, an American male feels 15 feet tall instead of the more normal 10 feet.
And what makes me think that Americans are pathological control freaks? It has something to do with their deranged attempt to gain control of the whole world using brute force.
Such an ambition shows severe psychopathy! Their love of guns is only part of their sickness.
Nobody seems to have an alternative solution to the invasive feral swine problem that we're having.
Just a couple of weeks ago, some friends of mine were out in rural Texas and were trying to put down a feral hog caught in a trap. They emptied a Glock pistol into it (so that's about 12 9mm rounds out of a gun very similar to one that the Connecticut shooter had), all well placed close-range shots made by a good marksman, and the boar was just pissed off more. They called me up to advise them on how to kill it. I advised that they get a bigger gun, I suggested a .30-06 if they had one, or if not a .308 or a 12 gauge slug, and shoot it some more (I also strongly recommended that they use the high powered rifle for the remaining pigs rather than the Glock because I find shooting large animals with puny guns like Glocks and Sigs to be needlessly cruel and inhumane).
Eventually, one of the hunters (an English guy about my age) got a .30-06 (a very very large caliber appropriate for large game) and killed the pig with 2 shots to the head. The first shot from the .30-06 (around the 13th total) blew off half the hog's skull, but it was still kicking around. The second head shot from the .30-06 (so at least the 14th total) finally killed it. Feral pigs have the constitution of zombies and take just as many bullets to kill.
We've had to put down too many cows because they've stepped into some hole that some dang hog dug rooting around in our fields and have spent too much time and money fixing fences and fields torn up by swine. Our need for high caliber semiautomatic weapons is not theoretical, preventative, or political, it is everyday and utilitarian.
-Nog
ok lucy,
i reread all the crap you posted and wouldn't change a thought from my previous response.
my owning a gun did not jeopardize anybody in connecticut - or my family.
i don't "feel" a need to own a gun - you are the one that makes all your decisions using feelings then you go find data that supports your feeling and offer it as some kind of conclusive logic (harvard found that guns increase the possbility of homicide - BRILLIANT amazing finding!! Side note: you ignored the Harvard study that doubted global warming...)
i "thought" about it and decided that i can't count on criminals to comply wih the law and having a bunch of police run around my house with their guns drawn after my family is dead doesn't help.
q
Hey DG,
if it will keep you out of my life, i'm good with it bro...
q
here is a horrible story. germane to this discussion.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html?utm_hp_ref=parents&ir=Parents
i do not know the authenticity...
q
I do think there is something psychological about gun ownership David but it is too big a subject for me to consider, i struggle with getting my head around why anyone would want a lethal weapon in their home especially after yet another gun massacre.
q- You stand by your answer where you answer the question you thought i was going to ask rather than the crap ones i did ask. I notice you also missed answering the big question at the end:
'if the Lanza house didn't have those guns in it yesterday, would the son have been able to do what he did with such devastating results?' I would like to hear you answer that.
lucy,
you don't always answer my questions... especially the rhetorical ones. I’m not denying reality. I’m denying your over simplified solution focused on one symptom instead of root causes.
So, here you go, drum roll for lucy: he could not have done what he did without the guns and ammunition she had in her house. unless he figured out how to make a bomb using common fertilizer or a one gallon propane tank. Or, had the guns been in a gun vault. or if the guns had trigger locks. or if the ammunition was locked up. or if the school had one or two armed and trained employees. Or if he was in a facility that could manage him and his mental condition.
What I have trouble connecting is that killing his mom was not enough. he then loaded the car, drove to the school, and continued killing. That is a lot of sustained anger or hatred. Makes me wonder if he was in some way compared to the other kids, or was jealous of the attention they got from his mom.
Oh yeah, could he have done it if she didn’t own a car? From his house to the school is a long way to visibly pack arms and munitions...
q
ps - there is something pyshcological about projecting human problems onto inanimate objects instead of people...
Should we be answering rhetorical questions??
The drum roll was a nice touch and that you would support some form of gun regulations. In reality Obama cannot forcibly take away your guns but if he is clever he can make it a real hassle and very expensive to own one and reduce the numbers sloshing around that way.
lucy,
the last time we had an assult weapon ban, 1994 to 2004, there was no change in the number or size of mass shootings. the data was reported in a time magazine article this year.
you gotta take away the guns already in homes. i do not see that happening. even if it did happen, all the violent gangs, drug pushers, organized crime, etc. would still be armed to the teeth.
but the bad guys wouldn't take advantage right? rhetorical - you don't have to answer...
q
From what i have been reading, the change Obama is looking for is a repeat of that same assault weapon ban but you say that it never achieved anything last time and i guess he knows that as well so he will have to come at it another way but he is probably on that already.
Lucy, arguing with psychopaths is counterproductive.
Most psychologists and psychiatrists won't deal with psychopaths because they end up needing counseling.
Let Q have his gun and his bible and let's hope that he doesn't flip one day as so many Yanks do!
300 million Yanks. 3 flip out per year... that is one in 100 million. pretty low odds dg.
You on the other hand, well, almost all of your comments are personal attacks or vague vileness spewed fairly indiscriminately at yanks, Jewish people, and anybody that disagrees with you. in retrospect, assuming we can believe anything you have posted, if you were in your twenties (which you could be) you would fit the profile of a mass shooter... misanthrope, deceptive (how many different names have you tried now?), and angry.
Here’s hoping YOU don’t flip dg.
Merry Christmas
q
Hahaha.
Pwned!
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